FAQ but not Q&A



 
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CTone
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PostPosted: 26.08.2010, 18:17    Post subject: FAQ but not Q&A Reply with quote

I miss a lot of information regarding all this HD on/off topic.
I searched Internet with no luck either
I did not even find how this revosleep works.

My findings that raise questions ^_^

HD States

HD can be in either idle state (spinning but doing nothing), stand-by state (not spinning but ready to come to life) and sleeping state (shut down).As far as I understood, one can spin up drives that are in stand by, but you need a reboot (HD power off/on?) to bring hd back to life.

In idle state, there can be also some kind of spindown counter, that is, an ongoing timer that once triggered and reached the limit time, it will standby the disk.


Types of disks:
- PATA(IDE), SATA, USB (either PATA or SATA in an enclosure with certain electronics)


Parts

Involved parties in this topic are_
- HD mechanical side
- HD own electronics+firmware
- external HD electronics (bridge USB to SATA/PATA)
- BIOS
- sw drivers for HD
- Operating System
- user sw

Disks have PM (power management); some of them also APM (advanced power manatement); other, AAM (acousting management, nothign to do with spin up/down ...).

Notes:
- Seagates seem to have something called "automatic power saving", that, even if you are not wishing, spun down your disk. There are some programs that claim they can disable that automatic power saving.
- WD, idle timer 3;
- others have special sw to handle PM /APM
- some disk loss settings after power off (no memory)
- some disks keep selective rememberings of settings

So, where can one touch to get a disk "out" and "in"? Seems that there are serveral choices:

- in Windows, power management give the choice to have a timer to spin down hard disks. All or none; i am unsure is this is an internal OS timer then an inmediate command to the disk, or the function relays in HD PM or APM timer ...; have not found anything SATA related.

- You can do certain things or not depending on your HD, its electonics, its sw driver; specially difficult can become SATAS, and USB units (SATAs/PATAs).

- SATAs: seems that revosleep can do things for you if you can use the "normal IDE driver" ... Did not understood much from the forum or the revosleep faq; I have a SATA but its installation has been difficult for itself. I have been unable to know yet if I have SATA native driver (AHCI) or I am using IDE emulation or whatever ...

- In Windows, System Properties, HW, device mananger, it is possible to disable or to uninstall controllers for IDE drives / SCSI drives (even SATA AHCI drives ...); Same is possible for each Hard Disk; I do not know
a) differences between disable and uninstall
b) the effects on disk spin state of disabling / uninstalling

- There are some programs oriented to hotswap/hotplug or that allow those opperations, that might help to on/off some disks (if you are looking to keep low noise low consumption long HD life, some of those might help you also):
a) Pay program: USB Safely remove (now, also manages SATAs); you can eject AND reconnect the units
b) free program: USB Disk eject (so, only usbs and no recconect)
c) free program hotswap! (including !) : SATA hot plug/swap


Utilities in windows:

- revosleep, of course. Seems to work well with IDEs (PATAs). You command your drive directly to go (probably) to standby (perhaps sleeping?). (I believe it issues ATA commands to HD electronics). Drive does not appear in explorer neither in device disk administrator. HD pretty cold and silent!


- free program HDDScan, although presented as diagnostics, it seems to complement somehow revosleep in the area of spin on/off (extract from HDDScan website):

The program allows changing some parameters for ATA/SATA/USB/FireWire HDD

2.APM –
this function allows power savings by temporary decreasing spindle’s rotation
speed (including complete stop) when drive is in idle.

3.PM –
this function allows setting spin-down timer. If drive is in idle spindle will
be stopped after the time set in the timer. If any program requests HDD
access timer will be reset and spindle will spin up.

(look: this is not what revosleep does! revosleep seems to do either a
standby+drive disable - or a full sleep; did not play enough to see what
happens in device manager or between reboots).

4.Disable Seagate PM –
theoretically should turn off some Seagate drives spin-down timer but I was
unable to find drives where this command would work.

5.
The program can also start or stop spindle immediately. If any program requests
HDD access drive’s spindle will spin up.

interesting ... to be tried also in my SATA!


Conclusion: many open questions ...

Revosleep seem to provide a very good solution for fixed IDE disks to voluntarily set them down or up; there is lack of information regarding on what basis does it work, looks like wizardry. HDDScan does not what revosleep does. Device/Driver disable-uninstall, HotSwap!, USB Safely remove, to be checked. Perhaps do cover this need for SATAs / USBs.

Revosleep has some margin to improve on SATAs and USBs.

Definetively, a real Q&A is needed!
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revo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: 27.08.2010, 14:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your posts and recommendations.

Firstly: I'm a private person, who simply provides a free program for sleeping disks (using at your own risk). I'm not some kind of a company which will give you full support for ide/sata/usb, sleep/standby related topics.

The FAQ is just a list of Frequently Asked Questions (no more, no less) Winken

CTone wrote:

I did not even find how this revosleep works.

Mmh, just try the revoSleep homepage: http://revosleep.realspooky.de/
Here is the proceeding of revoSleep: ...

CTone wrote:

HD can be in either idle state (spinning but doing nothing), stand-by state (not spinning but ready to come to life) and sleeping state (shut down).As far as I understood, one can spin up drives that are in stand by, but you need a reboot (HD power off/on?) to bring hd back to life.

Correction: The Sleep Mode lets the device spin down. A HW/SW reset is necessary to recover from sleep mode. RevoSleep uses only the standy-by mode. No reboot/power off/on required. The hd will wake up on hd access (but revoSleep avoid this by deactivating the driver).

CTone wrote:

In idle state, there can be also some kind of spindown counter, that is, an ongoing timer that once triggered and reached the limit time, it will standby the disk.

That's right. But revoSleep doesn’t use this timer!

CTone wrote:

- others have special sw to handle PM /APM
- some disk loss settings after power off (no memory)
- some disks keep selective rememberings of settings

Every device shall implement the power management sw because it’s a part of the ATA Standard! RevoSleep doesn’t use some kind of timer, so no settings will be apply. RevoSleep sends the hd in standby immediately with a special Device Command, specified in the ATA Standard.

CTone wrote:

- in Windows, power management give the choice to have a timer to spin down hard disks. All or none; i am unsure is this is an internal OS timer then an inmediate command to the disk

I also assume Windows uses an internal timer and then send an immediate standby command to all disks.

CTone wrote:

- You can do certain things or not depending on your HD, its electonics, its sw driver; specially difficult can become SATAS, and USB units (SATAs/PATAs).

As I mentioned above every device shall implement the ATA Interface (PM is a part of that). Also SATAs hava an ATA interface. USB is completely different to the ATA standard. So no PM has to be implemented and for that reason revoSleep doesn’t support USB devices. This you can find in the FAQ also!

CTone wrote:

- SATAs: seems that revosleep can do things for you if you can use the "normal IDE driver" ... Did not understood much from the forum or the revosleep faq; I have a SATA but its installation has been difficult for itself. I have been unable to know yet if I have SATA native driver (AHCI) or I am using IDE emulation or whatever ...

Only ATA Controller is important for this section. Just use standard drivers. AHCI should work.
I can’t give you more support on this topic, because I don’t know all of the hds in the world Winken. I’m also not responsible for the ATA Interface of your hd. I don’t know if the PM is implemented as described in the ATA Standard. Ask your hd vendor for more information Winken
CTone wrote:

- In Windows, System Properties, HW, device mananger, it is possible to disable or to uninstall controllers for IDE drives / SCSI drives (even SATA AHCI drives ...); Same is possible for each Hard Disk; I do not know
a) differences between disable and uninstall
b) the effects on disk spin state of disabling / uninstalling

Only each Hard Disk is important for this section. “Uninstall” removes the driver from your system. “Disable” deactivates your driver. Your hd isn’t accessible in both ways. So it couldn’t spin up by windows or some other process. You have to install/activate the hd driver (even after reboot). RevoSleep deactivates the driver partly. After reboot, the drives should be available automatically.

CTone wrote:

- There are some programs oriented to hotswap/hotplug or that allow those opperations, that might help to on/off some disks (if you are looking to keep low noise low consumption long HD life, some of those might help you also):
….
Revosleep has some margin to improve on SATAs and USBs.

Hotswap/hotplug/USB has nothing to do with sleeping disks. It isn’t supported by revoSleep and isn’t part of it (as you can find in the FAQ)!

CTone wrote:

- revosleep, of course. Seems to work well with IDEs (PATAs). You command your drive directly to go (probably) to standby (perhaps sleeping?). (I believe it issues ATA commands to HD electronics). Drive does not appear in explorer neither in device disk administrator. HD pretty cold and silent!

RevoSleep uses ATA commands and send your hd directly to standby. The Drive doesn’t appear in explorer or device disk administrator (HD driver is deactivated, so no volume) but in device manager (you should see a yellow symbol because the driver is deactivated).

CTone wrote:

(look: this is not what revosleep does! revosleep seems to do either a standby+drive disable - or a full sleep; did not play enough to see what happens in device manager or between reboots).

I hope all explanations above answered these questions.

CTone wrote:

Revosleep seem to provide a very good solution for fixed IDE disks to voluntarily set them down or up; there is lack of information regarding on what basis does it work, looks like wizardry. HDDScan does not what revosleep does. Device/Driver disable-uninstall, HotSwap!, USB Safely remove, to be checked. Perhaps do cover this need for SATAs / USBs.
Definetively, a real Q&A is needed!

Definitively this is a good continuation for the FAQ. A “real” Q&A isn’t my task and revoSleep doesn’t make it necessary. I will not explain the whole source code of revoSleep here. The whole ATA Standard and even more Hotswap/hotplug/USB (has nothing to do with revoSleep) aren’t the scope of this board! For more information read the ATA Standard or discuss with your hd manufacturer. When you have any questions regarding revoSleep you are welcome to ask. Winken
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CTone
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PostPosted: 28.08.2010, 01:01    Post subject: Thanks and more Reply with quote

Dear Revolver,
First, let me say that I am very thankful for your revosleep. And thank you for your answer, certainly it helped me to understand how revosleep makes its work -sorry, I was unable to understand this from the home web nor the FAQ.

I still do not understand if disabling a drive makes that all data in cache in written to the disk before drive disable ;-( and if disabling the drive does not also imply to sleep it!
Frankly, all sleep topics and hot-unplug / hot-plug topics would solve in that case just disabling the drive ...

Certainly with my posting(s) I am trying to solve some of my troubles in relation to how to handle disks off/on (more on this later), but also try to contribute my findings in that path. I wish to add that, from my point of view, the involved "technologies and ideas" for disks off/on, both in general and in relation to revosleep, are/were not clear.

Off course I do understant that revosleep is your private work, that you keep the sw code, and you have no obligation to provide support either.

You say that "Hotswap/hotplug/USB has nothing to do with sleeping disks", but I think some of their tools can help to sleep disks (in the sense of non noise no warm). Look:

disk off/on?
My needs in relation to HD cover two points:
- for some HD, how to make them off (=no noise, no warm)
- for some other HD, and how to plug on/off both. To be able to howswap/hotplug you need to flush the cache of the disk and to spin it down Winken
My own preception is that "technologies and ideas" for one need can help each other.

I did found that revosleep works well with my PATA disks (Seagates), so to avoid noise and warm; I was intrigued because you can put them into stand-by but then they would come to life if the os requests. Now I saw that you disable the driver to prevent that. I hope that you ensure that any cached data pending writting is written before all this Winken

what about my internal SATA? How to avoid noise and warm?
(current) Revosleep is not helping ME here (unknown reasons), it is a pity. I truly believe that I have my SATA running like an IDE (no AHCI support in bios, no such kind as an AHCI driver; i have not been able to understand all this stuff -not that I am asking you Revolver for that either!
I can report today that HowSwap! helps me there. I think it just flushed the cache (otherwise one can use Synch 2.0 from sysinternals) then disables or removes the driver. Looking for new hardware in device manager brings the drive back. But I have a mixed trust with this HowSwap ...

what about my external SATA? How to avoid noise and warm?
(current) Revosleep is not helping ME here again.
Obviously the solution to avoid noise/warm is to unplug it (if I could plug in later also). I can report today that HotSwap! also helped and can make off/on the this.

USB ... They are some electronics with PATAs/SATAs inside. I know that one can make then on/off from SW. Either using USB Disk Eject, USB Safely Remove (paid sw) or modestly with the system remove function. Then, you can avoid noise and warm without phisically unplugging them. USB Safely Remove even allows you to bring back the drive! Some USB drives spin down when system hybernates (Others not ...).

So, my post just tried
a) to try to learn more as many things unclear
b) to help other users with similar needs
c) to provide feedback to you Revolver just in case it might help for revosleep evolution
d) some work advance to "push" you a little to mutate the faq into a Q&A Winken

Currently revosleep + hotswap! allow me to cover all my hd sleeping+plugging needs.
I am confident that you avoid the lost of data in caches.
I am not much sure if hotswap flushes properly ... but that will be a question for hotswap board ...

Thanks again,
CTone
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audiodesignguide



Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 1

PostPosted: 22.04.2011, 09:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to know if I can use the RevoSleep to protect my Netboot harddisk from crash.

It is possible use this sensor to know when the Netbook is near a crash

http://www.olimex.com/dev/mod-mma7260q.html

Apple have integrated this function in all the Laptop.
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sambul




Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 1

PostPosted: 07.09.2011, 23:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

CTone

Nice write up - probably the best thread in this forum! I was looking for some info on the web on how to avoid spinning up a hard drive when not needed, and found RevoSleep (which can't do it at reboot, but can at wakeup) and this thread. Just wanted to add some info to it:

- If one deactivates an HD in a motherboard BIOS, it may get activated again in BIOS after next PC reboot or power cycle. So, deactivation in this sense just helps OS to start booting the PC one time without an extra drive. The drive will continue to spin when deactivated, since current BIOS versions don't control PSU, and neither usually send Standby or Stop commands to the drive on their own.

- Even if an HD is deactivated in BIOS, when you boot into Windows or another OS, it depending on Mobo and BIOS version may recognize the drive during boot and mount it. If you then deactivate the drive in Windows Device Manager, it will still be recognized at OS reboot, but not mounted and neither accessible. It will still start spinning at PC power ON, but may later stop spinning on its own after awhile, since all modern HDs have own PM control. Upon PC wakeup from Standby it won't start spinning again, if deactivated in Windows.

- HDs can be hard deactivated by switching OFF power to them using Hard Drive Power Switch Selector like Mitron's Duplus DUP-35 or Lian Li HDD Power Switch which are front mounted into a 3.5" drive bay. That may be the best option, if your drive seems to have some hardware problems (clicking noise or recognized with delay) yet still works, and you want to avoid spinning it up at each reboot when not in use. Keep in mind, each spin up of a defective drive often leads to adding more errors to it, thus making less and less accessible.

- Regarding RevoSleep, it would be nice to clarify whether it officially supports Win 7 32 and 64 bit, and if its development continues. And also add recommendations to its FAQ, how to program RevoSleep startup the best way into Windows Scheduler to work upon PC reboot or wakeup from standby.
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